Amy K Bormet: Jessica Boykin-Settles! Oh, here we are with Jessica Boykin-Settles, the Turnaround podcast. It's all happening. I am so grateful for you in my life for a million reasons. And the one in this very exact moment is that you have decided to take this magical journey of making an audio archive of the Washington Women and Jazz Festival that we have now rebranded as the Turnaround podcast. So why. Why do you find yourself here? What is what is your interest in in women, in jazz and history and all of those things?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, you know... I feel like I've found my my tribe. That's what it feels like. It feels like coming home, like being in a place where everything aligns to me, you know? I just remember the thing that brought it totally full circle for me was that year we did the Shirley Horn presentation at the Smithsonian Anacostia Museum, and that was the year that we were having... We were having our house renovated. And so it was only supposed to take like a month, but it took like two months or two and a half months. So -

Amy K Bormet: Yes, lies.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: -- I had to go to the storage space and like dig through boxes to find, like, equipment and stuff. I needed to put my presentation together for the... It was a mess. And so I remember showing up at the museum and I was like all frazzled and I was trying to tape pages together for music, and I'm just like, ahhh! And it was you and Karine Chapdelaine and Lydia Lewis was playing drums, and you all were like, "It's okay, It's okay." Like, there were hugs. I cried a little. But, but it was like, It's fine, Jess, it's fine. Like you helped me take music. You just like, you know, stroked my back and and I was like, you know, that that was not a thing that I think could have happened in a space that was like, more male centered because, you know, it's like, "Why are you crying. Why."

Amy K Bormet: Mhm. Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Like what's the big deal.

Amy K Bormet: Like... Or the freak out. Like she's crying. Just leave her alone.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: You know, like, okay.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah. But the women, you know, women, we know what to do. Like we know how to take care of each other. So like, whether it's on the bandstand or whether it's off the bandstand.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: So I think for me, that has been, you know, a big... When you found me and put me to work, that since then that has been a great source of validation and enjoyment and just fun. Like I look forward to the festival and it's just, you know, it's, it's, it's amazing. It's a great time.

Amy K Bormet: I love it too, obviously. It's why I put my put myself through this. Every every year I'm like, I'm going to never going to do this again. I don't want to see another spreadsheet.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: No, you've gotta keep doing it, because it's... You are creating a community, you know, and not just the community in D.C., but like you are literally creating single handedly a global women in jazz community. You know.

Amy K Bormet: It doesn't feel very single-handedly.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: You're doing... You're doing, you know. You're doing the work.

Amy K Bormet: You're doing the work.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Well, you know, you make me do work and I usually don't want to do nothing because, you know, I'm lazy. You're like, "get your..." --

Amy K Bormet: -- Yeah, you know, that's what I say about you. You're lazy. Like multiple, multiple jobs, multiple teaching gigs, multiple, uh, degrees coming out, making it happen.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, that's all happening.

Amy K Bormet: Wow. Well, I... We first really met so long ago, and I was thinking about it, and I can't even I don't ever imagine being in D.C. And not knowing you and not playing music with you. And I couldn't remember this morning when we first met.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I don't remember.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I've tried.

Amy K Bormet: I've just assumed that we've always been friends and we've always played music together.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I mean, it would have had to have been, I guess, when you came to... Was it --

Amy K Bormet: -- I came to the Institute.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: You were at the Institute before you came to Howard.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Oh, way before, Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: So I guess that was where we where we initially met, I guess?

Amy K Bormet: I have no idea. I just assume that we just came out of the womb together and...

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Well, no, you and Brian came out. Y'all are twins.

Amy K Bormet: Okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. And so... Okay, that's fine. I must have been at your wedding, then. That's when we met. I... You're just somebody that continues to inspire me in everything that you're doing. And you make me feel like a better, uh, musician, but also a better community member. And, like, thoughtful researcher and thinking. Thinking further about what kind of legacy I want to have, but also how how I want to teach and how I want to mentor. And, you know, you're the reason I went to Howard University.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: H-U!

Amy K Bormet: I would never have gone to grad school. I feel like there's a long list of people who would I would have never gone to grad school but for Jessica Boykin-Settles being like, don't you? I think that's a good move for you. I think you're going to have a good time. Like, all right.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, I should have been getting some kickbacks.

Amy K Bormet: Some kickbacks? Some kickbacks, at least a sweatshirt.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I made Brian go, too.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah, Yeah. You deserve...

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Like, "okay, husband, I've... I've done mine. Now it's time for you" --

Amy K Bormet: -- to be responsible for the cause. And so I, I... When I first started Washington Women in Jazz Festival, I was thinking about you and thinking about my experience at Howard. And especially with all of the women in the vocal department, and the way that that community came together and, you know, traveling... I traveled with Afro Blue, playing some piano, writing some songs, and really spending a lot of time with you and with Connaitre and all these incredible people that were there, Terri Davis and Christie Dashiell and Eliza Birkin and, you know, on and on and on, Rochelle Rice, like just... I think about all of these women that were around. And I had never had women like that around me, who were really, really, really into jazz, really, really into the music and just incredibly talented but also really thoughtful people. And that was something that stuck with me as I went to my my second year of grad school at Howard. I was at Betty Carter Jazz Ahead, and it was all men, male instrumentalists. And then there was women vocalists. Of course, Christy Dashiell was there with me and I was just hanging out with Christy the whole time, being like, I need to keep this positive energy with me. Oh, because.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: She's such a cool person in a bright light in a --

Amy K Bormet: right?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: -- calm in the midst of every storm.

Amy K Bormet: Yes. And I was like women. I want to be around women musicians. What can I do, you know, coming out of that experience, thinking like, what can I do to create a space that I continually can grow from and want to be a part of that is also really healthy... Because so much... You know, people throw around the term toxic masculinity, but so much of the jazz industry is is toxic. The behaviors on the bandstand, the way that the educational system is set up. It's really... It's really dangerous and it's unhealthy. And I think that that's true in general for musicians and artists who are fighting against against the nature of the capitalist system that we find ourselves in. And being able to play music and be with musicians that are aligned, at least coming from a more thoughtful space and more in touch with their emotions and more understanding of what's happening and what's going on on the bandstand. And respectful is something that's been really rewarding and not something I would have thought at the beginning. But now, especially hearing during these interviews that so many people have have found that this has been a space where they could truly feel more like themselves on the bandstand and bring their own music and bring their own creativity... That's something that you have definitely modeled and are a huge part of with this community. So thank you.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Thank you. 

Amy K Bormet: I'm just going to keep talking about it.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I... yeah, so... I'm just thinking about when I came to Howard, it had been, I think, 6 or 7 years since I had graduated from undergrad. So going into that master's program, I was... You know, I was the old head. That's like close to 30 years old. And, you know. But it was very affirming because, like you said, like there was you know, Connaitre Miller was heading up the vocal jazz area. And then there was Kehembe Eichelberger, who at one point was our department chair. And just having a chance to see and work with, you know, other female musicians on that floor, watching them work, watching them, you know, write books and produce things and ... Then mentoring me as I began my, you know, my journey as an educator. I was just really, really lucky to have been able to, you know, be mentored in that way, by women. And so, yeah, I definitely. You know, really take that part of what I do like really seriously and having a chance to give back and pour into young women, especially young women, coming from a space where they haven't had a lot of experience with leading bands or even being in a in a position where they're fronting, they're they're in the fronts and, you know, or they're coming from situations where their school didn't really have a formal music program, you know, So they haven't built up that kind of confidence in themselves to, you know, be able to stand in front of a band and count off. And... You know, so that has been very affirming for me to see young women grow into being able to be confident and and exist in that space even when it's not, you know, women centered, but that there are... There's some men in the mix as well.

Amy K Bormet: Occasionally.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: They are.

Amy K Bormet: Oh, yeah, Yeah, I think. Yeah, I think that's really powerful. And there's a certain type of misogyny that exists within the music space where we don't see women as bandleaders, where we don't see especially women vocalists as bandleaders. So I know a lot of your, your inspirations have come from other women musicians that and singers that have have brought that strength and that bandleading skill. So who, who do you feel like are your your musical ancestors that you've been referencing?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Ah, Abbey Lincoln. Oh, my absolute favorite. My favorite. Because I think that for me, she was the first... Before, you know, Betty Carter would be my my second. But the first person that I discovered who was not only just a jazz vocalist, but a composer and was able to kind of create this world, like her own world and just, like, draw you in to that world. I was just. It's just mesmerizing. Yeah. And Betty Carter, same thing. You know, when I lived in New York, I got a chance to see both of them live, you know, which was amazing. So those two and then Shirley Horn for many reasons. One, because she's D.C. native, I'm a D.C. native, I aspire to play the piano, although I play very badly.

Amy K Bormet: Lies!

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Um, but her as a, as a bandleader. And just watching her work, I got a chance to see her live as well. But watching her work and then hearing the way that her... band members with talk about her you know just. The experience of working with her was just such an important part of their lives. Like to hear Steve Williams talk about her. I mean, he was really young when he started playing on her band and well, Charles Ables didn't really say a whole bunch. But other people who have played in her band, like... The way they talk about her as being such a force and, you know, and so inspiring and how every performance was just this just transformative experience, you know? I am... Yeah, I'm very inspired by that.

Amy K Bormet: That's something that I continually hear from people who come to see you perform.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh!

Amy K Bormet: Is the vibe, you know?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Are we allowed to drink?

Amy K Bormet: You can drink whatever you like.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: We're just drinking water. But--

Amy K Bormet: Yes, you got to be hydrated. Think of your health, think of your hydration. You're just modeling good behavior for all of our listeners that they need to stay hydrated. Yeah, that's something that you when you perform, there's an entire like magical bubble that you extend to the audience that I love and I love being on the stage. And I have to admit that I also really loved just watching you because there is so much potential there for bringing the audience in in a theatrical way that I think a lot of jazz musicians don't do... They don't allow themselves to create a space wholly, but you have a way of drawing people in.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I'm a ham.

Amy K Bormet: Wow.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: A big old ham.

Amy K Bormet: Are you a ham? You are definitely not a ham.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Ham!

Amy K Bormet: I like that. Turning up... turning up to number two on the expressive chart, in terms of jazz musicians, you're like, Well, now I'm a ham. She just called me a cheeseball. That's it. You... You delicious cheeseball No, you're definitely not. That's the thing is, like, you're very cool. I mean, I'm a nerd, so I don't know if that means anything, but for me, I feel the coolness of... Of you. And you're super hip and you're super... The way you draw people in is not... It's not a false phony cabaret singer. I mean, I love a cabaret singer, but, you know, like, that's not what you're going for. You're actually thinking about not even thinking. You're actually embodying the story and embodying the music in a way that I feel is so organic and so fitting and so in the moment.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Well, I... So this is a funny story. When I was in elementary school, we had this program called The Storytellers.

Amy K Bormet: Oh!

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And so they would have these little conventions.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Like, you know, a couple of times during the school year where you would go, they would have it at... hold it at different schools in the area. And so you would go and then the kids from the school would would come to the the, you know, the cafeteria or the auditorium or whatever.

Amy K Bormet: I love a cafetorium.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yes. Multipurpose space. And you would... They would arrange the chairs in circles. And so each of the storytellers would sit, you know, you would have your circle. And so people would move from one circle to the next to hear you tell your story.

Amy K Bormet: Oh!

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And so I had props. And my book was called Phoebe and the Hot Water Bottles.

Amy K Bormet: The hot water bottles?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yes. And it was about this young girl who collected water bottles.

Amy K Bormet: Okay.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And this was like, you know...

Amy K Bormet: and You made that interesting.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I made it interesting. I had my puppet and I would tell my story. And so I just have always loved books and reading and telling stories and that sort of thing. And so for me, you know, when I'm singing. You know, that's the most important thing, is always just trying to get the story across. And so I think about, you know, there again, Abbey Lincoln, how she used her eyes, how Betty Carter used her whole body to tell the story, how Shirley Horn used dynamics to tell the story. And so, you know, I just try to channel them and I just try to... You know, the story is bigger than me. So I just try to get lost in there and make myself small but make the story big. And so I guess that's... That's what happens.

Amy K Bormet: I love that. Hmm. Wow. That's. That's. Yeah, that's magical. So much of what I have experienced in the jazz education system has been theory based. I'm talking about in schools.         Theory based, improvisation based scales. You know, when we were talking about improvising. It was always scales and chords and melodies, crafting melodies, um, those types of ideas and little space was left for actually crafting a narrative and crafting a, a... Space for the audience to be a part of. And so hearing you say that feels so validating. Because that feels so natural as, as a singer and as a person who's trying to really connect with whoever is in the space with you.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, I Feel like I'm still trying to apply that to improvisation because like, like I'm in that space now where I just get very jammed. It's like, what am I supposed to be doing? No, this is different. Oh, I should be thinking about this 2-5, I don't know, about... But when you listen to, when you listen to Betty Carter improvise, you can hear that. You can hear the story, you know. And when you hear Shirley Horn, she didn't do a lot of, you know, vocal improvising, but of course, her piano solos are just... It's just nothing but a story. Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Just exquisite.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah. So I'm still in that space. I don't. I don't think that, you know, a really... I wouldn't consider myself to be a really good improviser at this point, but I'm trying to get to --

Amy K Bormet: I'm sorry. If you're not, then who? Where are the other --

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Where are the improvisers? No, I'm trying. I I'm getting there.

Amy K Bormet: You're doing.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: it's happening.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I'm in my head a lot.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Too much.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I don't know if that's, like, a Taurus thing?

Amy K Bormet: Sure. Let's blame it on the stars. I'm fine with that. I think it's just an anxiety society overthinking thing.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: I understand that. Definitely. I spent so much time thinking about how can I shut myself up on the inside? Just shut off That editor, shut off the critic. Because especially thinking about writing too, it's like, what is writing but improvising and then writing it down, and the same critic will appear like, you know... You start writing something on and it's like, This is boring. This is cheesy. You're a cheeseball. This is dull. Somebody's already done this. You know, all of those things. And something that, for me, that has really been been helping is thinking about... How many years I spent playing the same songs that everyone wrote. And now that I write my own songs, a lot of the, you know... A lot of the stories that come out might have been told before, but they've never been told by me.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Right. Right. and in the way that you're going to tell the story.

Amy K Bormet: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Coming from a different a different place. It's coming from your perspective. So that's always going to be original.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's important for us to think about, especially as we recover from being jazz students.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, it really is like recovering. Well, I'm, you know, I'm in it again.

Amy K Bormet: You're still in it.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, I'm doing the doctoral thing.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Soon to be Dr. Boykin settles.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, man.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. How is that? How is that experience?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: It just... So far, it's just been a whirlwind.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Because I've just finished coursework, and now I'm, you know, in the process now of starting the dissertation process. So the proposal ands tudying for comprehensive exams and... But the coursework was such a whirlwind because You know, like you said earlier, I was working full time. Going to school full time. So teaching my full load at Howard and then since fall 2020, Taking four classes every semester except for last... This past spring, I didn't enroll because I just. I needed a break.

Amy K Bormet: Sounds like it.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: But it was just a bit of a whirlwind, you know, It's kind of like you're just knocking down the... Or checking off the boxes, you know? So I really wish that I would have taken more time to, like, really settle in and, like, savor the process because I just... You know, I've really enjoyed my classes. You know, there are some great professors at George Mason University, and I just I enjoyed my, um, my theory classes with Dr. Megan Lavengood, who's a baddie, just a theory baddie. There again, like... Girls rock.

Amy K Bormet: Yes!

Jessica Boykin-Settles: But yeah, I just wish I would have taken more time to savor, but... But I am not working full time now.

Amy K Bormet: Yes.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And so I... I want to take this time to be able to sit to savor this last leg of the process and like really be able to relax into this research and creating a dissertation that I love and will be proud of.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah!

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: It's going to be amazing. I already know.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, I'm still... I still haven't narrowed down a topic, but I was Really inspired by this symposium. I was... We were talking earlier about this symposium I attended on Friday where I'm teaching now at Georgetown University, and it was a conference given by the African American Studies Department. And so now just thinking about research in terms of... I just love how people would take their own personal, some kind of personal love or passion or memory, some kind of memory of something that they, you know, that they love and attach it to, like this research. I just thought that was fascinating.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: So then this morning, I was thinking I was out walking my dog.

Amy K Bormet: Shout out to Kingston.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Shout out to my baby, my little fur baby. And I was just thinking about, you know, that we were meeting today and thinking about, you know, the overall theme of the podcast and of the magazine and just digging in and like mining these memories and, you know, remembrances. And I thought about my earliest memory, which is I remember the day I started walking.

Amy K Bormet: What?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: That's my earliest memory.

Amy K Bormet: Wow.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah. Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: That's wild.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I remember my mom standing me up at the threshold, like, into the bedroom. And my father was in the bedroom, and my mother, like, propped me up because apparently I had been walking around downstairs, and then she bought me and, like, propped me up and, like, walk to Daddy. And I remember walking to my father, and then everybody was just like, Oh, my God. Yeah, it's my earliest memory.

Amy K Bormet: Wow! That's amazing.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And so I was like, how, you know, how can I tie that in to... You know, some research going forward because that was a big thing in my life. And I'm thinking about learning to walk and learning to walk in music.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, my stomach. I know the microphone is going to pick up my stomach growling. Oh, I should. I had a piece of that frittata.

Amy K Bormet: I told you. I told you.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I get some after. I get some after. Just... So how how I learned, you know, the things that happened after I learned to literally walk and the things that are happening as... After I learned to walk, like in music or in. In jazz.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: So thinking about some kind of way to, to, to tie that all of that together into some interesting research. I haven't... I haven't worked it all out yet.

Amy K Bormet: What a cool thought. What a cool thought. and it's such a connection to take the emotional side and the research side and memory is really a combination of those things. You know, thinking about what your your personal history is and how you can connect it to the work that you're doing now because everything has, you know, happens for a reason and those memories are stored for a reason. There's a reason why there's a strong emotion there, a strong emotional connection.  So that at least will make your your doctorate more interesting.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I hope so.

Amy K Bormet: You're like... You're personally invested.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, because I want to look at it not as this... You know this assignment or this project, you know, but and... By the same token, I don't want to look at it as something that's like, you know, the greatest thing that I'm ever going to write because it's not it's not going to be.

Amy K Bormet: There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of pressure.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: I know. Yeah. So I don't want... I've been, like I said, I'm a huge podcast listener. And so just listening to a lot of things to help kind of get my mind right and in position to tackle this thing. But one thing I was listening to was this... There's this this this book that was written by this this Russian dude. I can't remember his name, but it's all about creating your reality. Right? And then one of the things that that is one of the tenets in his book is like not making one specific thing this huge... Thing, you know, like not blowing... Like everything is important, you know, not just this one thing or not just this one thing, but everything is important.  Even, you know, something that is mundane is like, you know, taking a few steps to get from here to there. Like, everything is important, right? So but if you isolate this one thing and make it, you know, blow it up in your head, then it becomes this thing and we're not able to be ourselves in that, like kind of in that moment. So just kind of thinking about it from that perspective as well and being able to, you know...

Amy K Bormet: I like that. All the... All the parts of the chord matter. All the parts of the chord matter. We can't just have, you know, the extensions are important.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Even the fifth!

Amy K Bormet: But even the fit needs to be there, you know? And if it's not that, you still hear it.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: See?

Amy K Bormet: See? jazz philosophy. That's our next project, the jazz philosophy book. It's going to be amazing. Um, I want to take the, the time machine, take the time machine back to 2011 and the, the very first Washington Women in Jazz Festival, which I boldly called the inaugural Washington Women and Jazz Festival, implying that I would then have to do another one.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Because you knew.

Amy K Bormet: I knew. I knew. Some part of me was like, This is already the coolest thing. Um, what were, what were your thoughts on, you know, experiencing that and also being such an integral part of that? And what do you remember about the very first Washington women in jazz?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: You know... So I remember... This is so funny. I remember... So the apartment you were living in at that point?

Amy K Bormet: Oh, yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And I remember rehearsing.

Amy K Bormet: Wow.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: With Leigh and... And you and Lydia. And drinking homemade soda from your SodaStream.

Amy K Bormet: I got that for my wedding. That was just after my wedding. We made it happen.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And then I remember the actual... So I think. I can't remember if our, if my performance was like that second week because it was..

Amy K Bormet: It was early. Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah. And I just remember the spirit in the room at Twins was just so positive. I remember I was sick. I had a cold. I remember that. And I just remember it was just so fun and it felt... It felt like revolutionary and and kind of, I don't know. It was just very exciting.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: To be... I mean, I had played, I guess at that point, had I played a gig at Twins before? Maybe. I can't remember. But, you know, to be in that space and with... With my girls. I don't know. It was just something like revolutionary about I remember, like. Like making my eyes, like, very dark, like. So I wore a lot of eyeliners cause I was like, I want to look fierce.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, here it goes.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And then I had. I wore this thing. It had like, spikes on the shoulders. I had like this little... I don't know, it's in the video, this little spike. But I'm like... Yeah this is, yeah that's what, that's, that's what I felt and that's what what I really...

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Strong. Wow. That's so cool.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: That was fun.

Amy K Bormet: Oh, that was the best. It was just the best. I was thinking about, too, the, um... The first year. I had this idea, I would partner people with like a vocalist with an instrumentalist. And for me it was super obvious because I was really mad at the way that the music community and not these jam sessions, this culture of treating vocalists like... Women, women, vocalists like children, you know? So I played at HR-57, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday for the jam sessions. It was a lot of jam sessions. And when a woman showed up, there was rarely a woman that showed up and played an instrument. There was a couple of piano players that would come, which was great. But I... I think the whole time I was there, I never saw any horn players, any bass players, any drummers. So it would be a lot... a lot of the time if a woman showed up, there'd be one, maybe a night. And she would be a singer. And so the singers would come up and, you know, they wouldn't... All the things we were talking about earlier, they wouldn't take command. They wouldn't know what key they wanted. They wouldn't know what... You know, they wouldn't have a chart and they wouldn't have a an idea of the tempo. They wouldn't know how to count it off. They wouldn't know how to describe the field they wanted. They wouldn't know how to do any of that. They just came and they were like, I'm singing now, so someone will take care of it. And it irritated me to no end. And they would get on the stage and sing and would miss the key and I'd have to change the key. Or would, you know, all these things. Miss the key or miss the bridge or sing the wrong part or sing the wrong, you know, sing the ending too soon or not Be clear that the song was ending or wouldn't know that other people needed to take a solo because it was a jam session. Just wouldn't know a lot of those things. And so that's fine. That's what jam Sessions are for. Is getting that experience. However, the men who were on the bandstand who were lovely, just very polite, they were never, never unkind, would just say great! great job.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Hmm.

Amy K Bormet: And I'd be like, No! No, no, no! No! No, no, no, no! You need to tell them what they did wrong. So I got a bit of a reputation for going over and being like, Listen, you have... you know, I compliment sandwiched like the like the  manager's daughter that I was, I was trained to be. A compliment sandwich.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: A spoonful of sugar.

Amy K Bormet: You know, you have a great voice or hey, whatever. Whatever we need to say. Yes. Hey, I like your shoes. Whatever needs it. You know what I mean? Whatever we need to do to get something nice out and then, you know, and then be like, well, you know, next time some things that might make it easier for you and make you more comfortable is X, Y, Z. And so I kind of got this reputation because this, you know, the the men on the bandstand wouldn't give them that, wouldn't tell them that, because they would just be like, okay, well, they're not gonna... They're not gonna learn it. They're not serious about this music. I'm like, okay, well, even if they don't have any musical training, you know, like any, any training in schools or any degrees or any other jam sessions they've been to, and they just wanted to get up and sing something. I think that's amazing and super bold. And clearly they're interested enough to get up on the stage. So let's treat them with some some respect in a way that is very particular to the way that you are treating the men who get up on the stage and miss the bridge. They would be outright rude, you know, and hey, you missed it, you know, Hey, you didn't that's not it. That's, you know, come in and cut you off or whatever they needed to do. So for me, creating this festival from the very beginning, I had been playing with a lot of a lot of singers in town, and I knew that was kind of my bag because I was being more and more taking on this role of of teaching singers how to how to run a band and how to count tunes off and how to put a setlist together. And I fell into that because I wanted to see them succeed. These were the only women that were coming and I, I felt them be really interested in this music, and I didn't think there was a space for that. So I started, you know, doing that. And then I said, okay, this is something that I want to have these women see that there's other women that are really serious, you know? And I want to invite all of these vocalists that I've been working with to come to this jazz festival. I'd be like, Hey, look, not only look as in this other you know, I have Jessica Boykin-Settles, who, you know, head to toe, is just exuding jazz. But I have... You know, I have all these women behind her. And you can hire women to play your gigs. You don't need to rely on a guy to run your whole band and take care of your charts. And then it turns into who's doing the finances and who's doing the booking, the tour and who is doing the whole thing. And the way that women have been exploited in the music industry. So all of that to say...I I loved being able to bring that headspace that I was in at HR-57, at Utopia, I had these places that were operating on H Street, I mean, U Street at the time, and bringing that into the mix.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: You know, I love how, you know, the focus, your focus on young musicians, you know, because you think about... What is the statistic? That like even if young women are involved in music in like elementary school and middle school by high school, they're not doing it because they're very intimidated. And, you know, all these things happen. But, you know, I just think about my well, our, our music education. We had a different path because we actually attended an arts high school.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: But... and in middle school, I came up in a time where, you know, those programs were still very much alive in the public schools. So I played violin very badly. I had this amazing teacher in elementary school who went on to become like the person... Superintendent over all music programs in D.C., Pamela Alexander.

Amy K Bormet: Amazing.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Who was just... She was amazing. So I had a little bit of a different path. But I'm just thinking, you know, traditionally singers are not given that same kind of care and attention and education as far as music reading and being able to sight-sing and, you know, everything is played for you. You're learning things by rote. And then, you know, by the time you get to, you know, a situation where you're in public and you want to sing a song, you just you don't have the tools. So I just think it's really cool, you know, that you're putting an emphasis on that. And Shannon Gunn and her work with Jazz Girls Day.

Amy K Bormet: Jazz Girls Day, yeah!

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And that sort of thing to help to like really empower young women to, you know, to know that they can, you know, they can do it. It's like that, you know, that math divide that they're trying to kind of strike that stuff down, the STEM stuff like getting more girls involved. It's like... Kind of feels like the same kind of thing.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah. Culturally, there's so many things that we we tell ourselves as women, like, Oh, that's not for me, you know? I'm like, Oh, I wanted to play the trombone, but that's not for me, you know, like, oh, that's not, you know, So we have gendered instruments and then we have gendered careers and gendered experiences. And I think one of the interesting things about where we see women and girls coming up to the music education system is that that drop off isn't really happening with the string orchestra. You know, it isn't happening with the choir. It's happening with the jazz band. Yeah, very specifically happening with the jazz band. And why? And for me, it's because we don't allow space for women, for girls, for non-binary students to take risk, and that everything that we say is for women is is controlled. It's a very controlled space. And so if you want to take a risk, if you don't want to read your orchestra part and you want to take a risk, then you... That's not that's not for you. And that you have to, you know, stretch a little bit further. So in order to combat that, I think we have to continue to serve as models of people who are doing it and then also create a structure that supports women and girls from the very bottom of the education experience to the top, because we see them at the bottom having fun. And and kids in general have fun. They have a great time. And then they you know, they hit 12, they hit 13. And then everybody starts looking around like, well, what am I supposed to, how am I supposed to behave?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, and everybody wants to, you know... you want to fit in. You want to do what you know.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: You don't want to stick out, too much.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah, absolutely.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: But one of the one of the highlights for me, working with you at the Washington Jazz Arts Institute, was how you were this cheerleader for the young women and getting them to improvise and to... Yeah, that was amazing to watch.

Amy K Bormet: Thank you. I feel like it's something that I've, you know, I've tried so hard to be not subtle, but, you know, sneaky about because I don't want people to feel stuck out, you know, like a sore thumb. I don't want people to feel like, oh, it's oh, she's picking on me, or oh, she's, you know. So I think that something that I learned from Yarborough, Davey Yarborough super early on and watching him teach and being and being in his classroom and then watching him teach at Washington Jazz Arts Institute and being a part of that was just the very simple way that he just goes down the line.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah,

Amy K Bormet: everyone will solo. There's no who wants to solo on this. And I'll point. I'll point for solos. I remember a workshop I did at CalArts with Biggi Vinkelow and she had come from Sweden and we went and we did this workshop and we were talking all about all about these same issues and gender imbalance with instruments and education and all those types of things and our personal experiences as being musicians and being on the road and working together and making records and, and striving to be treated with respect and taken seriously despite the, you know, the onslaught of constant pressure and dismissal. So we did this whole workshop, and then after the workshop was over, we sat in on a class and it was like an improvisation class. And the professor, I think, eager to show off his best students, just started pointing at people to take solos. And this was an almost completely improvised orchestra. Started putting in people to take solos, and all of the people they pointed at to were men. I was like, okay, we just we just spent like two hours. And it didn't cause any alarm bells to go off. Like that's how ingrained this system is and thinking about how we treat students in general and how we... How we create this space where we only want to highlight students who are already, already have it all together. They already sound great, so let's put them out there, when in reality I was not the top of my class at Ellington. I was, you know, I wasn't... I was in academics. I was a nerd. So I took all my AP classes anyway, but I was number three. Let's not talk about it. I wanted to be number one. And then AP calculus came for me, but it's fine. But I was not the top of my class in piano, you know, when I was there, the like the D.C. Public Schools piano competition at Ellington. And I remember the very first year I did it, I lost in both the jazz and the classical categories. And I had come from Oregon where I had won everything, and I had been number one forever. And then I was dropped into this space where it was like, Here you are at the bottom. And it was so incredible to play up and it was so fundamentally important that Davey Yarborough was like gave me an opportunity to play up. Did not shy away from putting me in the spotlight. And he notoriously would say, okay, great, we're going to open this set with Amy playing solo piano. And I just... Like I crashed and burned the first time. I had this whole stride thing that I had worked out and I worked so hard on it and I forgot it like halfway through. But to be able to have that, you know, that feeling of like I am important to and, and my path is my path. That's something that I see this, this legacy of people that have studied with Davey Yarborough and and you know, you and Brian Settles and Herb Scott and... All these people that I co-mingle in the jazz community with, we all have that same thread that goes through us.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, he's the hub.

Amy K Bormet: Absolutely.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And he and I have a very special relationship because he really was like a dad to me... Because my father died my freshman year at Ellington, like gave me my lunch money that morning for school. I leave to go get the bus. And like within, I don't know, 30 minutes of me leaving like he had died, like on our living room floor. And so there was for me the rest of that year was a wash. I was just, you know, in this space, it's like what is happening? Because the prior year my oldest sister had passed away. So like within one year is like two major blows, you know, to my family. And, and at that point, I just... I had no interest in anything other than just, okay, doing what I got to do to get out of school. I don't care. I just want to get out of here. I want to grow up. I want to, like, just get a job. And, you know, this is just all too much. I don't want to have to think and expend a whole lot of mental energy and emotional energy on anything because, you know, things leave, you know, it was how I was feeling. And so I would go and sit outside of the band room and just listen to the band. And I never ventured inside. I didn't, you know. And then at some point in time that... The time between, I guess, would have been my junior year, Mr. Yarborough just kind of started to focus on me, What are you doing? Hey, you want to come and sing with the band? No, thank you.

Amy K Bormet: Wow, You said no.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah, I was like, I don't want to. I don't want to do that. I just want to keep my head down. I just want to do... I don't want to do nothing extra. I just want to do what I got to do and get up, get out of here. And so my grades were bad. I was getting D's and, you know, I just didn't have a lot of... Just interest in, you know, I was just sad. And and then he just started chasing me around, like, you know, asking to see my report card, like going to the office and, like, looking at my schedule, finding me in whatever class I was in at that moment, he would just come walking in. I was like, What? I thought I ditched him. I'm like, you know, he come walking in and, you know, let's see that report card. No, you got your report card today. And you know what's up with this D you know, can we do any better? And I was just like, I don't know, you know? And so I eventually relented. And then the summer before senior year, I did a... I guess that was like the beginning of the Washington Jazz Arts Institute because we would do... He was doing a program through, you know, Marion Barry's Summer youth, summer youth employment program. And so, you know, he really helped to bring me out of, you know, that space that I was in, you know. And I'd say that he really is the reason that I do this, you know, because it... Really, the music just really, really saved my life at a time when I really, really needed saving, you know? And he's like, I just love him so dearly. Just like my dad. I told David, I was like, I'm sorry you have to share your dad because he is my dad, too. I'm sorry.

Amy K Bormet: He's very, very shareable. Yeah, he's expansive.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: He's a champion of the WOMAN.

Amy K Bormet: Absolutely. Absolutely.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: He really, you know, he really helped to, you know, he would give me hard things. Like I knew from that point that I could do hard things in music and things that I didn't like, I didn't know how to do initially, like writing out a chart. And we would just do it over like he would look at it, okay, well, you got to do this and you got to do this. Okay, So redo this. And he really helped to you know, he helped me to gain my my voice and my confidence. So by the time I got to the new school, I, you know, I just felt like, okay, you're not going to tell me nothing, you know?

Amy K Bormet: Yeah, I got this.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: This guy in my class is going to tell me something that I don't know because I already know that. Excuse me.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Wow. Yeah. And, like, I know myself, so.

Amy K Bormet: Yeah, yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: You may know all that. I know that, too. And...

Amy K Bormet: Yes, but that's. I mean, that's that also that classroom equality is... Everybody, everybody has a place. Everybody is deserving of a equal piece of attention. And that's so rare. And I didn't realize how rare was until I left that space and then was like, oh.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah.

Amy K Bormet: Everybody's got favorites. Cool. Everybody's got favorites, but we don't need to know who the favorites are. Like, everybody's got favorites, and I can't get into that studio because I don't play like this and this and this. And you know, I didn't play the right Rachmaninoff for my audition, so I can't get in this piano studio at Michigan, you know, thinking about that.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Yeah. Everybody, everybody. What everyone has to say is important. And he really... He really lives by that, you know, And his reach is wide and far. And he is you know, he's an institution in this town. And I just...

Amy K Bormet: Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: He's the best.

Amy K Bormet: That's why we get along. So we're in the club.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: We in a cool, cool people's club.

Amy K Bormet: Oh, man. Well, thinking about your voice and your experience and how that's translated into your writing, I definitely want to talk about the song that we're going to perform.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Okay.

Amy K Bormet: That you wrote?

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Oh, you want me to talk about it?

Amy K Bormet: Sure.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: So this song has such, it has such a funny... It's like a serious song, but it came from a place that was kind of silly.

Amy K Bormet: I love that.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: So I wrote it... So we used to have this dog. Nikki. Her name was Nikki, and my mom got her my freshman year in college. And so when we moved back to D.C. in... Right before we Brian and I got married, what was that, 2001? She came to live with us. And at that point, she was like, she had to be, like, close to 20. I mean, she was old, I guess. Not close to 20, I guess. Like she was old, but still very full of life. Very... Brian used to say that I was jealous of her because she wasn't afraid of anything. Like, here I am. I'm afraid of my own shadow. Like I'm afraid of heights. I've been trying to learn how to swim for the last five years. I can't. I haven't been able to do it. But she was just fearless. She wasn't scared of bigger dogs or bigger things. She was just a small little thing. And she loved to get out. She loved to explore. So if there was any opportunity for her to get out, she would get out and she'd be gone for days. And then she'd come back and she'd be like, filthy. And just like she had been out having the time of her life. And so she got out one night and we were out walking around looking for her. We couldn't... We couldn't find her. So, you know, it was just like the thing.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: It was like, okay, we just gotta wait till she... Yeah, wait till she comes back

Amy K Bormet: She'll come back eventually. Yeah.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: And so I sat at the piano and I just started... Like this melody came because Brian and I, we were both just kind of hanging out in the living room, just seeing if she would come back that night and just started kind of messing around on the piano. And this melody came and and then the lyrics came after about... Basically about someone who wants to explore and, you know, do all of these fantastic things and traveling and, you know, go and see the Eiffel Tower and climbing to the top and that sort of thing. But I won't do it today. I'll do it. You know, I'll do it later when I'm more brave, you know, kind of as an an homage to this dog who was very brave and not afraid of anything.

Amy K Bormet: Yes. All right, let's do it.

Jessica Boykin-Settles: Okay!